Show & Share Transcripts

Presenter/Host: Sue Landay, Trainers Warehouse | Co-host: Sarah Cleaned transcript: filler words, false starts, timestamps, and auto-caption errors removed; lightly edited for readability. Welcome: Where This Topic Came From Sue: Welcome! I'm Sue Landay, this is Show & Share from Trainers Warehouse, and today we're talking about uncovering the iceberg. This topic came about because a friend who attended a Show & Share several weeks ago followed up with me afterward. She said she was wrestling, in an organization she's part of, with uncovering assumptions and biases — where they come from, how to identify them, and how to start talking about them. So I went through all of our Trainers Warehouse resources. The iceberg is a framework that won't be unfamiliar to people, but in our Trainers Warehouse way, I tried to come up with a tool to help people have these conversations. We didn't end up producing it as a poster with a set of facilitation notes, but the files have been sitting on our computers, and I thought, I'd love to share this. So that's what I'm doing today. I want you to know I haven't done this as a presentation before, and I'm guessing many of you have experience facilitating these kinds of conversations. I really hope this can be a conversation, with you sharing your favorite ways to do this, too. So raise your hand, put questions in the chat, stop me — whatever you like. Let me share my screen and show you some of the tools, and we'll take it from there. Sound okay? [Screen share] The Iceberg: What's Below the Surface Sue: So here's the iceberg. Typically what you see is just the top: actions, outcomes, results. But as we all know from the Titanic story, there's so much beneath the surface that we don't see — attitudes, perceptions, unwritten rules. The question I wanted to explore with all of you is: how do you start the conversation about what's below the surface? I also thought an elephant should be down there with the sharks, under the water. I realize an elephant can't be there, and I know I'm mixing metaphors — but the elephant in the room is sometimes the thing we don't talk about, so I just had to throw one in. Today I want to share a bunch of questions for starting conversations about the things we don't typically talk about, plus a couple of tools I think can help you get to this depth of inquiry. Opening Questions: The Surface Sue: I can't remember if it was John Riordan or maybe David Dye who asked, "What's a company rule you didn't learn in orientation?" That was one way they started surfacing the things we don't really talk about. Answer that question in the chat — or, if you have a different favorite opener question, please share it. Thank you, Courtney — you want to make sure you're framing the conversation before you dive in. Mm-hmm. Oh, a secret memo. Kelly, can you say more about that? Kelly: Sure — sorry, I have a bit of a cold. It's that famous expression: "Didn't you get the memo?" Like, "You didn't know today was Hawaiian shirt day? Didn't you get the memo?" I've heard it used as, "At what point did you get the memo?" or "What secret memos are in your organization?" It's really just a version of what you shared, Susan. Sue: Got it — same thing. What are those unwritten rules? Underwater Goggles Questions Sue: Back to my share — thanks for bearing with me. So that first question is the surface. Then I thought about two categories of next questions. One is the underwater goggles: you're snorkeling, seeing the next level down. The other is the supersonic submarine questions. I split the questions into those two categories. The underwater-goggles questions explore success, risks, mistakes, roles, rituals, decision-making, and management styles. I won't read them all to you, since you can read them yourselves, but please tell me if any resonate with you, or if there are other questions you can see yourself asking. Sarah, if you see the chat — oh, here, I can see it. I figured it out. "Just asking people to share." That's so simple and beautiful. Courtney, what's on your mind? Courtney: In my experience, especially in my current organization, we support six separate types of business, and they all have very different needs. There's often an overarching need, which is great, but they'll come and say, "I need training for this." And as L&D folks know, operations people sometimes think a people issue can be solved by training, and that's not usually the case. So being able to frame the conversation really helps: "Thank you for reaching out — I'm so happy to have this conversation. You mentioned you were interested in this. Can you share more about what's on your mind?" That lets them do the underwater-goggles thing you're talking about. They lead, they hit on everything they think is important for me to know, and they get it all out first — before I go into my analysis and ask the other questions I need to get the information I actually need. Sue: Awesome. Thank you. I also like Terry's "What is success?" — and appreciating that it's very different for different people. Hearing different people's interpretations of success matters, because there may be an assumption that it means one thing and it's the same for everybody. And Lisa's: "How does this land with you?" Interesting. Folks, if you see one of your colleagues typing something you want to ask about, feel free to ask in the chat. I love that this can be a conversation. Sometimes our Show & Shares are more one-directional, but I really want this one to have a lot of back-and-forth. I'm reading Joseph's entry as well: "Beginning with the end in mind." And Sandra: "Do you love or hate the idea?" Ooh — inviting them to disagree, and not just disagree, but disagree vehemently. I think I learned this at a recent conference: ask a leader, "What's the zaniest thing you could do to make people's workplace better?" Not that you'd actually do it — but how crazy can you make it? You're inviting people not to be realistic, to take risks and make it funny, so that if they think something has to be a certain way, you take that off the table. Supersonic Submarine Questions Sue: On to the next slide, with another set of questions — even more probing, a bit more risky. I probably wouldn't go to these levels until you've had more surface conversations: What are we not talking about? How does our organizational structure encourage or impede our communication? Where are expectations and norms different from what actually happens? Again, like Sandra was saying, you're giving people permission to talk about it. Model the Vulnerability You Want Sue: Something else I thought about while putting these together: answer one of these questions first yourself, to model the kinds of answers that are okay to share. It's almost like how I started this session: "I'm a little scared to ask these questions because I don't have a lot of depth in this area, and you probably have more than I do." Share your own vulnerability. For example: "I think I'm sometimes really strong with the people in my organization, and I may sway them and not be a good enough listener." Something like that. You're modeling the kind of vulnerability you hope to get from others. No worries about joining late — we're happy to have you. Sarah, what should I see from the chat? Sarah: Bonita is asking whether accountability fits into one of these — which you touched on — and her question is: "What broken process or toxic behavior do we complain about while we quietly accommodate it?" Sue: I like that question. Great one. Sarah: And Kelly says, "Not sure it applies, but to make participants feel safe replying with whatever's on their mind, you can have a snowball fight. They write their answer, response, or idea on a piece of paper without their name, crumple it up, and playfully toss the snowballs around the room. Call time, everyone grabs a snowball and reads it. All answers are heard, but nobody is called out." Sue: I like that. Facilitation Tips for Hard Topics Sue: As I thought about probing in this way, I wondered: okay, say we do the snowball fight, or we get people sharing, and difficult topics come up. Can we share some facilitation tips with each other for handling them? One thing I always talk about is creating a parking lot — acknowledging up front that we may uncover some difficult topics, and that if they come up, we'll keep a flip chart with a list of topics we really need to come back to. That way you get all the ideas out without dismissing them, but also without getting lost in them. I also like the idea I shared earlier of modeling the kinds of answers you're looking for. What other ways can we help ourselves get out of the hot water? [laughs] I realize we're actually in the cold water — we're in the depths. "Saying there are no right or wrong answers." I like that. Other approaches that work for you? Part of it is just listening, right? Like we said earlier: ask the question and listen. Be present. Any other tips before we go on? Sarah: I think that ties into what Pam is sharing: "My company has been going through significant cultural changes over the last 20 to 25 years. We've discovered that one of the most difficult conversations is helping an employee decide that our company may not be the right fit for them, while still validating their perspective, values, and approaches that might not line up with our company's values." Sue: Hard conversations. Pam, did you have a specific question, or are you giving us the lay of the land? Don't mind me putting you on the spot. And Sandra — sorry, I'm trying to keep up with the conversations. Sarah: Sandra says: "Don't feel like you need to have the answer. The fact that you're listening, taking notes, bringing it up, and can follow through later is a huge thing." But I think she's also asking: when you come up against that and you don't have an answer, what have you tried, and what has helped? Sue: It may be following up: Who are the stakeholders here? If we're creating a parking lot and taking notes, how should we follow up? Who needs to be part of the conversation? And again, frame it from the beginning: "We may not have all the answers right now, but we're trying to learn, and we're asking where we are now and where we want to be." There can be frustration — "We're having this conversation, so let's solve it right now." I think the honest and transparent thing is to say we may not be able to. Questions About Bias and Assumptions — and Thumballs Sue: Moving on, being cognizant of time. There are a few more questions about how bias and assumptions are formed. As my friend was asking me about this topic and I was collecting resources, I thought about our Diversity and DEI Thumballs, which focus on power dynamics and some assumptions. They're more focused on diversity, but you could pull some of those questions, make them your own, and apply them to the topic you're trying to uncover and understand better. For example: How can we create a culture of inquiry? How could emotional intelligence break down the iceberg effect? These are just some other questions, and I'm happy to share these resources. You could create your own Thumball with a bunch of these questions, plus some of the others we shared earlier — focus on the ones most pertinent to you. I have a few other resources to share, and I think I need to stop and reshare my screen so the links appear when I click them. Any questions before I share these, or should we keep going? Sarah: Checking in — Pam had asked, following up on her comment, whether there are tips for those kinds of conversations. I replied that the Thumballs have a lot of questions that could be helpful. And we have some people who are new to Thumballs. Sue: Glad you asked! These things behind me are Thumballs. Each one has conversation starters — prompts — all over it. You catch the ball, read the prompt under your thumb, and answer it. Trainers Warehouse has created them for loads of topics: getting to know you, change management, team dynamics, emotional intelligence, safety, diversity, DEI — you name it. In creating all those conversation prompts, we also created a Create Your Own Thumball. It's a ball with nothing on it, and it comes with a permanent marker — permanent so things don't rub off when people handle it. It's great if you're opening up your own conversation, like an iceberg conversation. It also works for reinforcement exercises on a topic you've already trained people on, especially company-specific information. We wanted a version you could customize. And Sarah's put a link in the chat to where all of those are. More Free Activities and Tools Sue: Let me share a couple more tools and resources, and then I want to come back to your question, Joseph, if that's okay. Our blog post on uncovering assumptions. We keep a blog, and we have a post on uncovering assumptions with a bunch of free negotiation and conflict-resolution activities that cover this: Where Does the Number Belong? The Arm Wrestle activity The Orange negotiation, from the Getting to Yes folks Partisan Perceptions The Old Lady / Young Lady exercise The Dress (black and blue, or white and gold?) Perception glasses. John Riordan did a session for us on the power of perceptions, featuring a tool with colored glasses that let you see information on a page from different perspectives. Put on the glasses and you may see different numbers and different information. It raises awareness that people see things differently and lets you put yourself in someone else's position. Love that tool. Company Culture Game. This is a new one we recently introduced, with card decks about your company culture. Green practices are associated with a positive impact and move players forward around the board; red practices have more adverse effects. You look at them from both a salaried and an hourly perspective — how do different people in the organization see the same situation? For example: "Our company matches job duties to employee skills and preferences." People can discuss the benefits and challenges, and how someone in a salaried position thinks about that versus an hourly employee. Another card: "People in this company know that workplace culture and policies restrict complaints and prevent people from reporting problems." This tool lets people talk about what really happens in your company culture — great if you have iceberg issues to address. Collaborative planning tools. We also have planning tools that give you frameworks to get from where you are to where you want to be. Three to mention, and then I'll be done: Road to There: Where are we now? Where do we want to be? How will we get there? What's the gap? A wonderful planning tool, available as a virtual facilitation kit. Square Wheels: A simple, very provocative picture that prompts conversation about how many organizations work. There's a person in front who can't see anyone else, people pushing from behind who have no idea where they're going, and processes that aren't working. Asking about it sparks really interesting conversations. Synergy Stack: A card deck that walks you through connecting, building clarity, and bringing people together to explore problems, build and explore their curiosity, and come to commitment together. A great tool for facilitating and creating new habits. So: a bunch of questions, a bunch of tools. I hope this was helpful. Q&A From the conversation to a project plan Sue: Thank you for the thumbs-up, Joseph. You had another question — do you want to explain it a bit so I don't have to read it? Joseph: High-level summary: I've been in the game a while, and we have all these worksheets and models — ADDIE, ADKAR — lots of things we can use for needs assessments. But in my experience, when I actually get into a project and start the work, people in the conference room don't want to do that. They'll fill out a Microsoft Form or do an email assessment. Your stuff here is really great, so I'm curious how other people actually apply this to real projects — to document things and move them forward. Sue: Courtney, do you want to share what you do? Courtney: [After some audio trouble] My organization is learning to get better about leveraging technology. For example, with surveys: my company culture is that people don't like filling out surveys. They like face-to-face conversations. And I've worked for leaders who say, "Show me the data where people are asking for this" — which is obviously challenging when no one will fill out a survey. So my team and I got creative. We build survey questions in Microsoft Forms, and as we meet people around the business and ask them those questions in person, we put our notes into the form. When we come back to it every other month or quarterly, we can see when and who asked, and what specifically they were talking about. It's an internal way of documenting what's being asked for in those verbal conversations. We can use it like survey data, alongside the other data we look at. I've found it very helpful for building a case: "This training is higher priority than that one," or "This initiative needs to go on the horizon." It's been very impactful in our company. Sue: It's almost like a cross between a survey and a focus group. Courtney: Yes. With as many conversations as we have, we always have the questions we want answered as a team in the back of our minds. So we started putting them in a form. If I don't fill out the whole form every time, that's okay — I still have a place to track who's asking for what. When I look at the data holistically, I get a true picture of how many times people are asking for, say, Six Sigma training versus change management versus other initiatives. Sue: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that, Courtney. I realize we're at the half hour, and some folks might need to go. I'd love to continue the conversation and will stay on for another half hour. If you need to leave, we won't be offended — thank you for joining us. Joseph, do you want to push a little further? Did that answer your question? Joseph: Courtney, that was brilliant. As an org psychologist, I love that you walk around with questions in the back of your mind while talking with the organization. I'd just say there's so much paper stuff that just exists, you know? I find it's more the pragmatic work of sitting with people and hearing what the problems are. We build a plan and drive it forward — there isn't really a systematic way, per se. So I really appreciate Courtney's approach. I'll end with this: we can do a great thing like the Thumballs — super great, really cool. But how do we take the information from a Thumball session or that type of conversation and apply it within a project to drive it forward? Because we have deadlines, like a go-live. I'm just musing, because I love what you have at Trainers Warehouse. Thank you. Sue: I think of it as a process with steps. The Thumballs don't do everything. They start conversations, build relationships, and open up topics you might not otherwise talk about. That's why I always come back to the parking lot and writing things down on a flip chart. If you think of the conversation as a start, then you can say, "Wow, we learned a lot about each other and about what we need to do. How do we get from here to there?" That's part of why I wanted to share those other tools. Sometimes you want an approach — a rubric, a way of thinking about a problem — to get from here to there without bringing in a consultant or making it really complex. Sometimes it's a Start, Stop, Continue, Change: organizing the ideas that came out, getting everything up on the board, sorting and prioritizing. Having a process — that's the word I'm looking for. Your first step is the conversation. Then you pick the process: What do we want to implement, and how? Thank you for asking that and pushing a little. Open Conversation Sue: Other questions, about the iceberg or anything else? We still have about 25 people on. Anything top of mind — a challenge in your training or your organization right now? How do you help others see their own iceberg? Participant: I have a question for the group, and I'd love insight from others. How do you get someone else to see the iceberg? In L&D, we're always in the service business of helping other groups in our organizations. Sometimes it's easier for us to see, in different departments and subcultures, "These are the surface problems, but here's what's actually happening down below." But how do you approach those conversations to help the people in that space see the iceberg? I feel like that's the hard part — getting them to see and acknowledge it's there. Once they do, that's usually where your buy-in comes from when you start talking about solutions — whether it's process, performance, people, whatever. How do you get them to acknowledge the iceberg? Sue: I want to hear from others as well. For me, it goes back to questions like "What is success to you?" It's figuring out which question to ask so they see, "Oh, we have different answers to this. We see things differently. I had no idea you had this other perspective." So you might ask: What are your expectations about X? How do we make decisions? Some of those underwater-goggles questions, just by being asked and answered by multiple people, can help people appreciate that there are different perspectives — that there's something going on that we're not all aware of. And knowing what some of the issues are, you may need to formulate your questions a bit differently to help people come to it and see it on their own. What I'm hearing is that you don't want to just tell them — you need them to see and appreciate it themselves. So: Is it about roles? Mistakes? How we're working together? Our internal processes? Are things falling through the cracks? How we support each other? Is this resonating at all? Joseph: To jump in — when I saw the iceberg model, I initially thought of Lewin and his change process: unfreeze, change, refreeze, when you want to change the dynamic of an organization. As an example of under-the-surface problems: I was on a cybersecurity project in oil and gas. One team member, an IT person, would spend forever in a meeting thinking through an answer. He'd get to the right answer, but it would take 15 or 20 minutes. It was painful — the worst — but it was still the right answer. So, as an L&D and change person, I'd do drive-bys during the week — hang out, cup of coffee in hand, talk to people. I'd stop by this guy's desk — his name was Dave — and we both love Marvel movies, so I think we talked about Doctor Strange for a couple of weeks. I'd sit, listen, and get to know his thought patterns and how he talks. Then, a day before a meeting, I'd say, "Hey Dave, I'm thinking about doing this for the cybersecurity program. What do you think? Does this make sense?" And I'd stand there for the 15 or 20 minutes while he walked through his entire thought process, making a mental note of what he said. The next day in the meeting, I'd say, "Dave, I'm thinking of doing X, Y, Z — what are your thoughts on that approach?" — summarizing what he'd said. He'd say, "That sounds good." And everyone else in the room would be like, "How did you do that?" So what I'm hearing from you, Susan, in this whole session is: use different techniques to listen, to become aware, to become interested, and then learn how to ask the right question. It's not about telling someone directly that their culture is wrong. It's about asking the right question — which takes time to formulate — so they think about it, come to their own conclusions, and make it their idea. Sue: Thank you. Sarah: Sorry, Joseph — Courtney's asking you to remind people who had that model. Joseph: I believe it was Lewin — old-school change-management planning. If you look up "Lewin iceberg model," that should work. L-E-W-I-N. Participant: Kurt Lewin. Joseph: Kurt Lewin. Thank you. The "Seven Whys" Sue: And Sandra and Bonita have reminded us of the seven whys. Would either of you like to talk about how you've seen it work? Participant: Hey, Sue. The seven whys is really about getting people curious and pushing them to think deeper. If they're coming to you with a problem, or you're looking at why something isn't working, you ask why — sometimes people use what — and the idea is you keep asking why seven times, because it forces you to go deeper. So: "Why isn't this working?" "Well, people just aren't jumping in." "Why aren't they jumping in?" It forces them to process it and think beyond the surface answer. The first time you do it, it can be a little awkward. But people start to realize you're trying to go deeper, and sometimes you can process it together. We tend to go to the surface answer first — that's human nature — or we look for places to blame. Just by continuing to ask the same question, you move through the process, and it can surface things we don't necessarily want to say out loud, or things we kind of know but haven't put words around yet. Wrap-Up Sue: Thank you for that. Sarah, let's say thanks to everybody and turn off the recording. Andrea, I see your hand up — we're going to keep going, but I just want to cut the recording and do our formal close. [Recording ends]